There have been interesting discussions so far that I'm enjoying immensely! The concept of God and scripture reappears quite often. I would like to comment on views of my commentators but also present my own perspective.
There are a lot of issues that are being discussed at the same time. I would like to concentrate on ONE point at a time and discuss it in details.
As different people make different assertions I will try to present the points of view I came across so far and my thoughts on them. I want to break it down into small chunks. I will also use dictionary definitions to make sure that we are talking about the same thing.
When I think of Islam, Qur'an immediately comes to my mind. Qur'an is the foundation of what Islam is about. Later come hadiths and sira of Muhammad.
Let us take a look at Qur'an as a scripture, as a book of guidance, as a divine revelation.
1. Qur'an is considered to be the verbatim word of God.
32:2 Sahih International
[This is] the revelation of the Book about which there is no doubt from the Lord of the worlds.
hence:
1a. We can assume that the Qur'an is perfect i.e. not having any mistakes, faults, or damage as we would expect from God – an omnipotent and omniscient being.
1b. It also says about itself:
2:2 Sahih International
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -
Yusuf Ali
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
16:89 Sahih International
And [mention] the Day when We will resurrect among every nation a witness over them from themselves. And We will bring you, [O Muhammad], as a witness over your nation. And We have sent down to you the Book as clarification for all things and as guidance and mercy and good tidings for the Muslims.
17:9 Sahih International
Indeed, this Qur'an guides to that which is most suitable and gives good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a great reward.
There are two assertions being made that Qur'an is:
a) without doubt (dict. doubt = a feeling of being not sure whether sth is true or right)
b) guidance [I also often hear that Qur'an is like a manual for life]
(guidance = help and advice given to someone about their work/education etc;
manual = a book that gives instructions about how to do sth.)
There is also verse 5:19
Sahih International
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.
The Qur’an says that it makes CLEAR what is expected of believers in:
9:115 Sahih International
And Allah would not let a people stray after He has guided them until He makes clear to them what they should avoid. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of all things.
24:34 Yusuf Ali
We have already sent down to you verses making things clear, an illustration from (the story of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who fear (Allah).
[please note this time I used Ali’s translation cause Sahih says: sent down to you distinct verses while Khan, Pickthall and Ali translate it as making things plain]
24: 46 Yusuf Ali
We have indeed sent down signs that make things manifest: and Allah guides whom He wills to a way that is straight.
36:69 Sahih International
And We did not give Prophet Muhammad, knowledge of poetry, nor is it befitting for him. It is not but a message and a clear Qur'an.
5:3 Sahih International
(…) This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.
I think we established enough that the Qur’an claims to be clear (mubeen) and provides guidance to believers.
The Qur’an also claims that falsehood cannot creep into its text in:
41:41-42 Sahih International
Indeed, those who disbelieve in the message after it has come to them... And indeed, it is a mighty Book.
Falsehood cannot approach it from before it or from behind it; [it is] a revelation from a [Lord who is] Wise and Praiseworthy.
15:9 Sahih International
Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.
While in 4:82 it says it is free from discrepancy:
Sahih International
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.
Right, so we got that out of the way :-)
It seems that I’m in agreement with Usagi, who wrote a post as a reply to my questions here, that the Qur’an has been protected and as a word of God should be flawless.
I will write about the issue of Arabic and translation in another post. As I said, one topic at a time.
However, I didn’t extract a satisfying answer to the following questions:
If the Qur’an is perfect, flawless and CLEAR why:
1) do we have so much disagreement over what its verses mean?
2) do we have different schools of Islamic thought that not necessarily agree on the details (which shouldn’t be the case if the book is plain and clear in the first place)
3) what about:
12:1 Sahih International
Alif, Lam, Ra. These are the verses of the clear Book.
15:1 Sahih International
Alif, Lam, Ra. These are the verses of the Book and a clear Qur'an.
26_1-2 Sahih International
Ta, Seen, Meem. These are the verses of the clear Book.
Where is the clarity in those abbreviated letters? What do they mean?
Commentators on that post disagree whether translations are good enough and convey an accurate meaning (next post so please refrain from comments on this one just yet :-) ). There also comes an issue of Arabic language as such.
3) Is Qur’an easy to understand or not? Views seem to be divided on this one. And it is an extremely important issue as we are talking about eternal punishment in hellfire.
4) Stephi said that the Qur’an is not easy to understand but the Qur’an says otherwise… If the book is clear then I believe easy understanding would follow.
On the other hand, If it is easy then why am I often advised to supplement reading of the Qur’an with hadiths and tafsirs to understand THE TRUE meaning?
5) One commenter says that the current Qur’an is probably filled with a few flaws, which I believe goes against the Islamic tradition. Could a perfect and omnipotent God send a book of guidance with flaws?
Uff, I think I'm done! I would like to add so many things but wanted to keep it short and stick to one topic which proved to be very difficult :-)
Thank you for reading and well done if you got through until the end :-)
27 comments:
I think the Qur'an is a perfect book. And any disparity among all 'human' writings / sayings such as the hadith / tafseers etc can be rejected if it does not go with the message of the Qur'an. No-one as of yet has been able to convince me of the 'unclearness' yet. :P.
:)
hey Nas,
thanks for the comment :-) why so many interpretations then if it's not unclear?
Hey :).
Because we're human and thus being so, not perfect. We make mistakes, and on top of that, people interpret things the way they want. For example, Bin Laden and co used the same verses to 'justify' what they were doing, other hate preachers only interpret verses in one way, which goes against the overall teachings to put forward a particular point.
People normally make the interpretations fit their beliefs rather than allowing their beliefs be moulded around what the Qur'an says.
Hey there!
i heard a very beautiful statement from a scholar the other day: People have a misconception that unity means having the same ideas and opinions. Thats not unity - Unity is having different ideas and opinions, but accepting each others opinions and living together with those differences in peace.
"If the Qur’an is perfect, flawless and CLEAR why:
1) do we have so much disagreement over what its verses mean?"
You're misunderstanding, they're not disagreements, the're differences in opinion. :). Did you know that at the time of the prophet, the two greatest companions, Hadhrat Abu Bakr and Hadhrat Umar, had differences in opinion. Dont you think that if Allah wanted everyone to think the same way he would have created us with the exact same level of intellect, and he obviously would not have allowed differences to happen between 2 such great people. But thats not the case. There always was differences in opinion, and there always will be. Its your duty to pick one school of thought and follow that one only. And its best to pick one scholar and follow his opinions only. Why i say that? Because Islam is about putting Allah and his deen first. When we follow too many scholars, and differences are inevitable, what happens is we find out a ruling on something from all of them and then pick which one we want to follow. The scholars call it "fatwa shopping" :). So basically we choosing what pleases us. So its best to follow one scholar. Differences in opinion do not make the Quraan any less clear. Each scholar interprets the same thing differently, but the interpretation is not based on what he wants. He will base his ruling on the evidence he finds in the Islamic sources of law. So each scholars rulings are backed up with an islamic source of law. This is a very crude example, but im using it just to explain: Look at poetry; everyone is looking at the exact same poem, but do they interpret the poem in the same way? no! Different scholars of english will interpret each verse differently. But can you say any of them are wrong? No...
As for the letters you asked of, the arabic term is "Hurooful Muqatta'at". They are words that only Allah knows the meaning of. We except it as it is. I'll use the same example of poetry - people can hypothesize about a verse, but only the poet knows the true meaning. But does that make the poem any less clear? If thats the case we wouldnt be studying poetry in school :)..
"Is Qur’an easy to understand or not? Views seem to be divided on this one. And it is an extremely important issue as we are talking about eternal punishment in hellfire"
Thats not the focus of Islam. Have you ever come across a muslim that is walking around with that worry on his mind? We dont go through our lives wallowing in the idea of burning in hell. The Quraan is clear - There is no doubt about that. And maybe its not easy for non arabic speakers to understand the exact words, but thats why we have scholars who have dedicated their entire lives in writing translations, books and whatever else in order for ordinary people to understand. If a person does not understand the Quraan it does not mean he is going to be subjected to hell forever. Its not possible for everyone to understand the arabic that is used in the quraan. But its absolutely easy to understand the teachings of the quraan. And thats the main idea - following and implementing the teachings of the Quraan. And not understanding the Quraan is no excuse - as i said we have scholars that have written books in probably all the languages of the world, so everyone can understand Islam and follow it without much hassle. We are told that if we dont know something, we must ask the men of knowledge. So its not the duty of every person to go and find his interpretation of the Quraan. We have all the necessary knowlegde, now we just have to follow it.
"On the other hand, If it is easy then why am I often advised to supplement reading of the Qur’an with hadiths and tafsirs to understand THE TRUE meaning?"
As i have mentioned before, the 3 basic sources of Islamic law is the Quraan, ahadeeth, and the sunnah. Did you know that the prophet never spoke anything except that which Allah wanted him to speak. So, the ahadeeth is basically an indirect form of Allah's words. The quraan contains the core of Islam. If you look at the Quraan and the rules of wudhu (ablution) - The Quraan only mentions 4 acts to be performed (thats the compulsary acts for the validity of the wudhu), But if you look at the ahadeeth and sunnah, you'll find that the acts of wudhu contain almost 10 acts. That means that if a person performs the 4 acts his wudhu is valid, he'll get a minimum reward, but if he performs it the way the prophet did it not only is it valid, but he gets an immense amount of reward. So the quraan contains the core (like the night sky) and the ahadeeth and sunnah are like enrichment (like the stars and the moon in the night sky). They go hand in hand.
"One commenter says that the current Qur’an is probably filled with a few flaws, which I believe goes against the Islamic tradition. Could a perfect and omnipotent God send a book of guidance with flaws?"
Yes you're right, there are no flaws :) ..
As for your about page, you mentioned
"I ended up NOT converting to Islam, whilst 'the love of my life' decided that he couldn't conceive the idea of being with a non-believer."
-- Thats not how it is. A muslim man is NOT ALLOWED to marry a woman who is not a muslim. The idea you're creating is wrong. He simply followed what Allah wants him to do. Yes, people do it, but the Quraan is clear on it being forbidden. So i actually admire him for that. Thats what i was talking about - putting our religion and Allah first, and ourselves after. And i see he did exactly that! That takes a lot of strength, especially when it comes to love. (i did not say this to offend you, so please dont be offended :))
Take care!
I hope all of it came through :) Couldnt post it as one coz it was too long :)
Sa'dia, they all came through as you can see :-)
i'll try to address your points asap but would appreciate your patience :) thank you for stopping by and commenting, greatly appreciated :-)
just to make a quick comment about my ex. according to what i know a muslim man IS allowed to marry a woman of the book. But again, interpretations differ.
Yes, exactly, he followed what Allah wanted him to do. and why? because i don't believe in the same book as he does? because i don't believe in any man-made book? because the merciful God promises to roast him in hell if he doesn't?
Just imagine for a second what he must be thinking about non-muslims if he thought of ME - somebody who he claimed he loved more than himself as disgraceful for not being a muslim! Does such thinking deserve admiration? Really?
I put an individual first. Not his/her skin colour, nationality, religion etc. It doesn't matter to me. Individual and his/her actions is what counts for me.
take care!
"I put an individual first. Not his/her skin colour, nationality, religion etc. It doesn't matter to me. Individual and his/her actions is what counts for me. "
And what counts for a muslim is what Allah wants. Allah comes first. If a religion demands something, are you going to go against it because you feel your values are in question. (reverse the situation between you and your ex)
Yes, a man is allowed to marry a woman of the book, but there arnt any left in this world. A person of the book means a jew or christian that followed the ORIGINAL book that was revealed. The books have been altered by man and therefore todays christians and jews are not the people of the book.
"and why? because i don't believe in the same book as he does? because i don't believe in any man-made book? because the merciful God promises to roast him in hell if he doesn't?"
You're questioning Gods words and commands...
"Just imagine for a second what he must be thinking about non-muslims if he thought of ME - somebody who he claimed he loved more than himself as disgraceful for not being a muslim"
Loving Allah comes before loving mankind. And did he ever tell you that you're a disgrace because you're a non-muslim? If he did then thats clearly wrong. But whatever it is, it was the right thing to do (not marrying a non muslim)
As far as i can see, you have a considerable amount of knowledge of Islam. So do you have the intention of becoming a muslim? If you do, whats stopping you? You know, you can always become a muslim and do all your research afterwards :). You already seem to know the fundamentals of Islam.
hi again Sa'dia :-)
due to time constraints i can't answer all your questions but the last one. I started learning about Islam in Jan 2010. I think my knowledge is enough to reject it, so no, I don't have any intention of becoming a muslim.
You know, you can always become a muslim and do all your research afterwards :)
no offense but this is such a ludicrous statement... why would i want to do that? why the hurry?
Well, my dear, i obviously had the wrong impression of you. i thought the reason you were asking all these questions was because you were interested in becoming a muslim. And i was absolutely glad to be of any help whatsoever to you if i could be. But i see from your comment in the above post that you obviously have no intention of becoming a muslim because "Islam has too many holes". So why are you bothering with all of this?? You've rejected it, so just leave it be. Theres no use in what you're doing then. Its like you're using every opportunity to discredit Islam. I absolutely love my religion, And im not going to make any comments only for you to start criticising and finding faults. Had this been an objective discussion i wouldve continued, but you've made up your mind about Islam, so your opinions are all subjective. So forgive me for saying that, but i thought you were genuinely interested. I was wondering why, if you were interested, were you turning this into a debate.But now i see more clearly. From the comment you left in the above post, it leaves the impression that you hate Islam, and your only aim is to pick out faults under the pretext of "understanding better". Maybe currently you're not following any religion, but come the day you do, and if you find someone picking faults, I bet you'd feel the same way i feel...
I'm bothering with this at all because I find Islam absolutely fascinating! and yes, I've been reading about it for over a year and the more I know, the more I want to know! I don't claim to have ultimate understanding of islam, quite to the contrary. I put forward my understanding based on reading and that's all really. If I'm wrong, I am wrong, will gladly be corrected.
Why do you say there is no use? I derive satisfaction from learning, also about Islam.
I'm not preventing you from loving islam and practicing it, am I? You are also welcome to comment on my posts but you don't have to.
I think statement it leaves the impression that you hate Islam
was uncalled for. Was I hateful in my speech? Did I say anything hateful about Islam? the Qur'an?
so i'm sorry that what i post offends you but it's not my fault that questions of this sort pop to my mind when reading the Qur'an.
"I'm bothering with this at all because I find Islam absolutely fascinating! and yes, I've been reading about it for over a year and the more I know, the more I want to know!"
Then i sincerely wish you all the best. But like i said, imagine if somebody tells you your religion has holes, and that they've rejected it. The qualifying word is IMPRESSION. I didnt say you SAID anything hateful. You're asking people to be respectful to you, but you're not being respectful. How can you say to a person that her religion has holes? you call that respectful? How about you say that you've studied Islam and you just feel its not for you. Dont you think that at least sounds better.
"Why do you say there is no use? I derive satisfaction from learning, also about Islam."
Well maybe its just the way you're doing it. Imagine you were a muslim, who loved their religion, then read through your posts. In the above post you stated a verse of the Quraan and you asked her if theres anything odd about it. Do you really feel your approach is correct? Religion is a very sensitive issue.
I sincerely wish you the best, and if i have offended you, then i ask to be forgiven.
Sa'dia
first of all, it takes a lot more to offend me, really :-) you saying that my ex did the right thing and you feel admiration for his action didn't give me warm fuzzy feeling but it didn't offend me either so we are all good :-)
let me ask you sth please. how does me saying that i rejected islam and i have no intention of becoming a muslim give an IMPRESSION of me hating Islam?
i respect you as a person (you didn't do anything to make me think otherwise) and I respect your right to hold any kind of opinion you want to have. if I disagree with you on your opinion and say that your argument doesn't hold water, would you consider it to be disrespectful?
I have no problem saying that Islam is not for me, because it's not. Could you please tell me what I could possibly say to my interlocutor if he/she asks me why I think so? (it is a sincere question and my sincerity might not be visible online that's why i'm stressing that my tone is polite and sincere:-).
and finally Sa'dia... I don't mean it to come across the wrong way but if the content of my posts makes your conscience uncomfortable and you don't like my approach then I guess no one is forcing you to read it...
I don't feel I insult Islam by simply pointing out things that don't make sense to me. We're bound to disagree on everything (I guess) but what I would like to stress is that my rejection of Islam doesn't mean that I don't respect YOU as a person. Please let me know if anything I wrote is unclear but also tell me how I should go about blogging about the subject in your opinion.
thank you :-)
I have so much to say about this post, but I am feeling too lazy now :( .. I'll come back later to comment on some points. Until then, here's a website I found that might have answers for some of your questions http://www.quranicteachings.co.uk/index1a.htm
Err... excuse me, pardon me, but since when is starting a relationship with a girl, telling her you love her, and then dumping her cuz you suddenly want to follow your religion Islamic? If he wanted to go this way then he could have been honest from the start, and saved her a broken heart. I have no admiration for him whatsoever.
I think Almost also has the right to write on her blog about what she wants, since that's the purpose of a blog. It's also quite obvious from the title of her blog that she didn't convert to Islam and is talking about Islamic subjects purely out of interest. I personally think she's a very nice girl and doesn't deserve that kind of judgement. She's not obliged to please every person out there.
awww thanks Hun for your support!
@ Almost a Muslimaah/Safiyah
Well my dear Safiyah, if you read you would notice that she started studying Islam before her break up. That would obviously give a guy hope - hope that he would be able to marry the girl he loves. Now i think you're blowing this totally out of proportion. I didnt say anything about anything been Islamic. What i said was, If this guy really loved her, but didnt marry her SOLELY because she did not become a muslim, then that takes a lot of courage and strength to end a relationship. Especially since its love. We all know love can make a person blind. Thats what i said BEFORE she told me the facts about him. Im not admiring him, im admiring the action. Theres a major difference there Safiyah :). She mentioned the facts about his character AFTER what i said. And i said that what he said was clearly wrong. Read up again if you wish to :). And just by the way - that was an OBJECTIVE comment. Yours is SUBJECTIVE.
And she definitely has a right to document what she wishes. But, in her about page, she said she doesnt mind comments, as long as they are respectful. But, in my opinion, Its NOT respectful to tell a person that there are holes in your religion. Whoever it may be. That person is following a religion because they BELIEVE in it. So a statement like that doesnt go down too well. Your religion is what you are, what defines you.
I also think she's a very nice girl, and i said absoluetly nothing on the contrary. If you just read up again, you'll see that i SINCERELY wished her all the best.
And just by the way Safiyah, you're Judging me dear :)
As for how you should go about blogging, Diplomacy will take a person a long way in life. As the saying goes - Diplomacy is telling a person to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the journey - I think that says it all.
Now i dont want to go away and come back to find this turning into an argument. As for your posts, no, i will continue to read them. But what i didnt like was just what you commented in your above post. She was so sincere in what she said, and reading that kind of a comment can be hurtful.
Theres nothing wrong with disagreeing, but it needs to be done carefully. As another saying goes - Words can inflict more pain than a sword - And i think everyone will agree with that.
As for what you say to a person who asks you why Islam is not for you - How about that you've read about it, even studied it, and you feel that that is not what you're looking for in life. Its not what will satisfy you spiritually.
And theres nothing wrong with pointing out things that dont make sense to you, after all thats the only way you will be able to learn. I didnt say anything about not doing so. You clarified my thoughts, that you're studying Islam. After reading the comment above (that you've rejected Islam) and then reading your posts which bring up a number of issues, its a natural assumption that you're on a crusade to pick faults (and only people that dislike or hate something will embark on a crusade against it). But now that i know better, i sincerely apologise. Like i said, any person who doesnt know that you're studying Islam would naturally come to that conclusion (and no, that wasnt obvious to me Safiyh). When i found your blog absolutely NOTHING told me that you were studying Islam to increase your knowledge, so again it would be a natural assumption that this blog is to clear your doubts because you're interested in accepting it as your religion. (But of course you're under no obligation to do so.).( And on that note, your blog title kind of mislead me :).)
So i think it would be best if we could clear the air. Again, my sincerest apologies (and to you too Safiyah, since this has obviously offended you).
@ Sa’dia
And that’s where we differ. You admire his action, I don’t. Not only because I’m somewhat a ‘victim’ of the situation. This world is in such a mess because people cannot appreciate each other for who they are.
I know you will disagree but we are all human beings first before anything else. This could be such a uniting point for all of us! But no, you and my ex are Muslims first which puts religion in the forefront of discussion. That’s how we end up on opposite sides of the fence Sa’dia.
That’s what really bothers me about Islam because it propagates us (Muslims) vs. them (non-muslims/non-believers) attitude. Do you think this is a constructive attitude? Do you think we are benefiting from it?
As far as respect goes Sa’dia. I guess if you wish to continue reading my blog you need to get yourself a thicker skin. You believe Islam is right, it is the ultimate truth and I think Islam is wrong. If any sort of criticism of Islam or disagreeing with what it teaches is disrespectful according to you (it seems that's where the line is) then I guess I will be disrespectful (just to give you thumbs up ;-). Also, allow me to quote verse from the Qur’an and maybe you could comment on it in relation to respect:
98:6 Sahih International
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.
You are an adult woman, a Muslim who consciously practices her religion (I think). So I’m going to show you respect by treating you like an adult who is responsible for her opinions/beliefs as much as I am responsible for mine. Does it sound fair? I should apologise in advance however if my posts don’t meet the level of respect you require. You can criticise my opinions and beliefs to your heart’s content, really. So when we discuss topic X and I present my arguments, my arguments still stand until you prove me wrong. I had my ideas criticised so many times and it only helped me revise them, improve them or abandon altogether. It’s great! I’m telling you :-) And I’m sure it’s gonna happen to me a few more times!
I guess that’s just about what I wanted to say on the subject :-)
take care and have a good day!
Theres absolutely no such thing as an attitude of us vs them. Look at the wisdom behind such a command and you will understand better. Muslims have co-existed with non muslims for centuries, with absolute peace and harmony. So the truth is, i dont really see the segregation you're talking about. You know, there was a time in my life when a non muslim girl was my best friend. And ive seen it throughout my life, muslims mixing absolutely freely with non muslims. And you know what, anyone else would put their religion first, not muslims only. It just depends on that persons level of spirituality. A friend of mine wouldnt marry her boyfriend until he converted, because she was a Jehovahs Witness and he was Tamil. Her religion didnt allow it. So you're going to say the same thing about them, Jehovahs Witness VS Us, Non-Jehovahs Witness? So no, Muslims are NOT the only ones who put their religion in the forefront. Religion comes first for a lot of people.
Now please show me where in my comments i said disagreeing is disrespesctful. My comments seem to invite a case of selective reading. I said theres no problem with disagreeing. I said thats the only way you will learn. I said nothing about you criticising that is disrespectful. So please read up those comments again if you wish to. Like i said, this is being blown totally out of proportion. What i said was disrespectful was ONLY your comment in the above post. I have absolutely nothing wrong with the idea that you think Islam is wrong and i think its right. you're entitled to believe in what you want to believe in. Theres no hard feelings about that. And i said absolutely nothing on the contrary. You're under no obligation to accept it, i know that. And you have no idea what thick skin i have. Believe me ive whethered the most terrible insults.
As for the verse, yes i think its quite fair. If you look at other religions they will tell you the exact same thing in their scriptures. You think people like Terry Jones believes muslims will go to heaven? Never. He believes we'll rot in hell - probably even get the worst kind of punishment ever. You think thats fair? You think its fair he called on people around the world to burn the Quraan? You think its fair the kind of insults Muslims receive in the form of the cartoons drawn against the Prophet Muhammad? I havnt come across any scripture that mentions that all religions are on the straight path - and that everyone will go to heaven. So no, thats not exclusive to the Quraan. And, i mean, its no secret how many people believe Islam is from the devil. You think thats fair? You think those people think they're going to be living happily alongside us in Heaven? Most certainly not.
(sigh - this is really getting tedious) Please show me where i criticised your opinions and beliefs. Here comes that case of selective reading again. I didnt criticise anything you said or believed in. Theres only one thing i said - and that was ONLY about that ONE comment. Before i knew that you were learning to study Islam i told you maybe you should leave it. But after i realised that you're NOT on a crusade against Islam, and that you're studying it to better your knowledge, did i say dont study it? You can comment all you want about what you're being presented with. I mentioned that even. I said thats the only way you will learn. Thats the only way misconceptions can be cleared up. So i relly dont know on what you're basing all those claims you made above.
But anyway, You also take care and have a good day.
P.S. From the above i guess it seems you dont think that your comment was disrespectful, so its fine, leave it. This is your blog, your values, and your identity. So forgive me for imposing my values on you. Yes, my conscience hurts me terribly when i see people who are not careful about what they say. But thats my conscience, so i wont impose my ideas and thoughts on you...
we could argue until we both turn blue so we can agree to disagree. I don't have time to address all the points you made but here is few:
1) no, I don't see any wisdom in that verse apart from dividing people into those who believe and those who don't, and the latter being the worst of the creatures. And THAT'S disrespectful.
2) yes, I'd say exactly the same thing about others making their partners convert or suddenly deciding being with sb from a different faith is unacceptable for them.
3) the fact that other religions preach similar stuff doesn't make it okay. your argument: "look! they do it too!" doesn't work for me. do you think that's okay then? I never defended Christianity even though my upbringing was Christian.
4) I said you can criticise my arguments/opinions etc not that I'm insulted by it. I realise that by putting it out there I might get feedback.
5) Thank you for trying not to impose your ideas on me. Plus, if sth is 100% right and perfect and what not, there is no need to worry because good ideas can defend themselves and will stand on their own.
so let's agree to disagree cause it did get tedious, you are right. no hard feelings. take care :-)
Yes, i think we'll just agree to disagree. I wish you all the best on your spiritual journey, and i sincerely hope you find that which you're looking for.
And one more thing - just because religions dont allow mixed marriages you think thats causing division. I can guarantee you if you ask anyone in this world what causes division among people, they'll never say that. Maybe you dont see the wisdom behind it, but ill tell you what it is - Do you think you'd be able to live in absolute peace and harmony with someone who has a different ideology to you? Thats where conflict of interest arises. Thats where you get children born out of those homes, who are so confused, because they were not guided in one direction. they dont know which way to turn. You may say that that is better, as the child can choose which religion to follow, but thats not the reality. the reality is that those kids grow up more confused than anything else. And wouldnt you want to marry someone who will assist you in growing spiritually, someone with whom you can grow together with, someone with whom you can find peace with together? And can you do that when you dont believe in the same thing? Can you do that when there is a clash of lifestyles? How can you create a harmonious environment in your home when the mother and father both believe in totally different things - they both cling to their own beliefs. Say for example a muslim man marries a christian woman - what do you teach your child, That Jesus is God or Allah is God? How will that child grow up feeling? Just because mixed marriages are not allowed, thats creating division? If that were the case you wouldnt see people of different religions mixing. But that doesnt happen.
As for your comment "the latter being the worst of the creatures", that was totally off the mark. We were not even talking about that. But thats what you seem to keep harping on. And you know what, ALL religions are going to believe that they are the true religion. Go ask Terry Jone what he thinks of muslims. He'll probably say we're dirt, trash, garbage. He thinks the absolute worst of muslims. So how on earth are you going to find a religion thats going to compliment your values? A religion thats going to allow you to obey your values first, and then what God commands. The fact that other religions do it too just shows that you're expecting too much. That unfortunately is the harsh reality.
I see you have a nice way of picking out your verses. why not pick out the ones that extol Gods mercy and kindness to his creation, why not pick out the one that says God will guide all those who seek his guidance, why not pick out the ones that says His mercy, forgiveness and kindness will override His anger and wrath? The Quraan is not filled with verses condemning souls to eternal damnation.
You dont need to reply to this, i was just clearing those misconceptions.
Anyway, What i said at the beginning i sincerely mean, i really do wish you the best in whatever you do. And i really really hope that one day you will find a religion that will give you peace - Coz whats life without a spiritual connection :)...
Dear Sa'dia, I have to admit I was a bit offended by your comment, because I believe that you don't say to someone that you appreciate that her boyfriend broke her heart. I think this can create a lot of hurt. Also, appreciation is never objective, but always subjective. Appreciation also increases the behavior that is appreciated, and I don't think that we as women want to encourage this kind of behavior in men.
I suppose there is nothing wrong with preferences, like that a Muslim man wants to marry a Muslim woman, but then he shouldn't have started the relationship in the first place. He should be true to his word, and don't back out later for selfish reasons.
I also don't agree with your argument that Christianity does the same. What on earth does it matter what Terry Jones said about Islam? Just because someone insults us we can do the same? Don't you think we should be above these kind of things? If my belief that God doesn't command hatred and intolerance is against Islam, so be it. I will not change my values about this, and neither should Almost. I rather think we should strive to ban intolerance from this world, not increase it.
Anyway, I know you meant well, and I wish you all the best too.
I'm sorry I will add my personal touch to this long series of answers.
There is something I still don't get: why people from different religions could not marry?
For sure if you have the same religion, things are easier. And not always. Imagine your level of practice is different. It can also create tensions inside a couple.
If you don't, you just have to respect each other beliefs and don't try to impose the way you feel and think.
This is the base of every relationship.
I would agree with Almost and Safiyah, he knew from the beginning she was not a Muslim so why even start a relationship if you are not able to pursue it.
Religion is a personal choice, nobody should impose it to you.
I think it's coward. He took the good for him and then he left her.
Sorry but Religion is a poor excuse.
And looking at Almost case, she respects Islam, she just think Islam is not her path. And that's her right.
@ Safiyah
"I also don't agree with your argument that Christianity does the same. What on earth does it matter what Terry Jones said about Islam? Just because someone insults us we can do the same?"
Err, Safiyah, i dont follow your train of thought. That was in response to what?? When did i insult anyone? When did i say its ok to insult? If you read the terry jones comment in context you will understand better. Basically what you're saying is that the Quraan is insulting? Because my comment on terry jones was in response to the verse that i was presented with and asked whether that was fair. So id appreciate it if you could just clear that up.
As for the ex - i think you people are totally misunderstanding me. If you read carefully what i said, you'll see what i mean. I am by no means condoning his actions. But ive seen lots of muslim men/women start a relationship with a member of another religion, and they get married when the other converts. I dont know the details of her break up. But do we know for sure that he was just playing with her? Do we know for sure that he never really had the intention of marrying her? All i said was that if he broke off the relationship because he didnt want to marry a non muslim girl, and he loved her, that takes a tremendous amount of strength. Had the tables been turned and she was the muslim who did not marry because he was a non muslim, i would have said the same thing. I dont know the manner in which he conducted himself in this relationship. But all im saying is that it takes a lot of strength to follow Gods commands and to basically sacrifice what you so dearly want - and i mean that for anything. I dont know what his intentions were, but if thats what it was, then how can you not admire that? It takes a certain amount of spirituality to be able to do that. Im not saying all of this because im a muslim and he is a muslim. I felt the exact same way when a friend told me that she wont marry her boyfriend, who was tamil, and she was jehovahs witness, unless he converts. All im saying is that that takes a lot of strength. If he was just playing with her then thats totally wrong. As i said i dont know what his intentions were. I understand from where she's coming from, it must have being painful - But i think what we're doing is judging him without knowing the facts.
I really don’t have time to reply properly to your comments Sa’dia cause I’m having my friends over for a few days but they’ve gone to bed now.
I want you to get certain things right so you don’t use arguments based on your assumptions about me.
I’m not against God, I’m against organised religion. All of them. Maybe not against, but I do dislike it because of how divisive they are. So please don’t bring to the table what Christians/Jews/whoever do cause this kind of argument doesn’t work with me.
You say I’m being disrespectful for saying Islam is full of holes but you have no problem with a verse that makes a rather disparaging remark about those who don’t believe in the Qur’an and Muhammad. That’s fair and not disrespectful towards others. And me presenting you with the verse was off mark. I really don’t know what to say to that...
I told you, the fact that other religions preach similar stuff DOESN’T make it okay and it really doesn’t make your argument valid, sorry. And your comment about Terry Jones was used to make a point about what exactly? As Safiyah asked, what’s the relevance?
So how on earth are you going to find a religion thats going to compliment your values? A religion thats going to allow you to obey your values first, and then what God commands. The fact that other religions do it too just shows that you're expecting too much.
if that’s the case then I don’t want a religion that makes me not embrace others as they are. I don’t want this factor in my life. I’ve always seen an individual first. I’m not going to dislike somebody simply because they are gay, Jewish, black, short or what not. I don’t want a religion that makes me feel superior to others because I’m supposedly on the right path. I don’t want to have a righteous attitude that most ultra-religious people display with much pride. I found that most religions teach the above so… thanks, but no thanks!
All religions can’t be right/the true ones so what makes you think your religion is so special?
Coz whats life without a spiritual connection condescending much?
As for my ex. It’s simple really. If you are a member of any religion and you simply CANNOT even imagine, not in million years, being with sb from another religion, DON’T get into the relationship in the first place!!! Forget about an obvious fact that your religion FORBIDS it explicitly.
Here is how it went down. We developed a relationship; we fell head over heels in love with each other. Now, if you love sb very much and you don’t wish to be with anyone else, what does religion matter? He must have liked me enough as a non-Muslim to fall in love with me. He liked me enough to want to marry me but religion just spoiled it all. As if me being a non-muslim all of a sudden scrapped the fact that he loved me, he wanted to be with me and I was and am a good person in general. If that’s not divisive then I don’t know what is…
@Marie
Sa’dia explained in one of her posts why people having different faiths shouldn’t marry.
Thank you for your kind words, I hope you are well.
@Safiyah
thanks for your comment hun! I couldn’t agree more on trying to get rid of intolerance and I do hope to live to see a better world :-) xx
Gosh, i cant believe how out of hand all this has become. As i said before, that case of selective reading is rearing its ugly head again.
I thought we were over on all this Almost. I thought we had settled our differences. But it obviously seems not.
The difference is how we each view religion. i view it as the core of my life - you dont, and really, thats fine. I still stick with what im saying, and you stick with what you believe in. You wanted your misconceptions on islam cleared up, and that was what i was doing. Not once did i criticise any of your beliefs, neither did i ever say anything based on "my assumption" of you. Im not assuming anything about you by the way. Whatever i said were my views, i didnt say anything with any other intention.
Im not going to comment on any of the claims you made above, because really, im tired of this now. All this is being blown totally out of proportion. words are being put into my mouth AND they're even being twisted further. Its pointless carrying on - i stand for what i believe in, you stand for what you believe in - So we're just going to go on clashing.
And why on earth are you bringing up the disrespectful bit again?? I told you im not imposing my ideas and values on you, and you agreed with that, so why bring it up again?
And just to set the record straight - Not once did i criticise your beliefs, Not once did i say you have to believe in what i am saying, and not once did i let my so-called assumption of you influence anything i said. So please avoid painting me out to be a scavenger who's out to kill you and what you believe in. I respect what you believe in, and your choice to choose what suits you in life (as ive mentioned before), so dont make it appear as if im practically shoving islam down your throat.
Now, again, im apologising if i hurt or offended you, that really wasnt my intention. I dont go around picking fights with everyone. The difference is that i believe in my religion, Its the core of my life, Im at peace with it, it defines who i am, and so I AM prickly when someone makes comments that dont come out nicely. And if the tables were turned you'd feel the same way - just the way you'd feel when someone says something ugly to you about what you believe in.
So please, lets not finish off on an ugly note. As you said, we'll just agree to disagree, so we can, hopefully, keep the peace between us.
Wish you all the best, and Take Care!
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